From Red Tape to Red Carpet [PODCAST]

A third-party artificial intelligence service generated this transcript, which may contain typographical errors, omissions, speaker-identification mistakes, or other inaccuracies. While we may make limited edits to improve readability, the transcript should not be considered an official or verbatim record of the conversation.

Andrew Lewis
Permits and regulations might not sound exciting, but they can make or break opportunity in Pennsylvania. When projects get stuck in red tape, costs go up, jobs are delayed, investment dries up, and communities miss out. For far too long, Pennsylvania’s burdensome permitting processes put us at a disadvantage compared to other states in our region, but the situation is improving, thanks to some smart reforms. As we’ll discuss today with Senator Kristen Phillips Hill, when government works efficiently, it opens the door to growth, higher wages, and stronger local economies. This is Freedom Rising, and I’m Andrew Lewis. Each episode, we dive into the big issues affecting Pennsylvanians and the country at large. We have a clear point of view. We want Pennsylvanians to have more opportunity, more prosperity, more freedom. After all, Pennsylvania was the birthplace of freedom, and it can be a beacon of freedom once again. Our guest today is Senator Kristen Phillips Hill, who is a state senator from York County, Pennsylvania. Her time as a small business owner has made her an incredible advocate for reforming government and making our state more competitive when it comes to job creation, empowering our job creators, and permitting reform, which we’re here to talk about today. How are you doing, Senator?

Kristin Philips-Hill
I am so excited to be here with you, Andrew, and just so grateful to be able to talk about something that I felt really passionately about for a very long time, and that is permitting and regulatory reform, and it’s because I have seen firsthand how broken the system really is, and just, you know, businesses weren’t being told no, they weren’t being told anything, so no timelines, no updates, no accountability, and that’s not how our government should operate, so that’s why I pushed for permitting reform, and we were able to get speed done.

Andrew Lewis
Yep. Tell us about SPEED.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Oh.

Andrew Lewis
Tell us about SPEED.

Kristin Philips-Hill
SPEED is amazing. It was sort of that first break to get something over the finish line, because you served in the house. Do you know how difficult it is to be one of 203 members to get something over the finish line? I drafted my first regulatory reform and permitting reform bill before I even entered the house. Oh,

Andrew Lewis
Wow, like you’re on the case, you’re on the case well in advance, and then

Kristin Philips-Hill
Went to the Senate, and we pitched this package of bills. Ironically, do you know how government red tape got its name?

Andrew Lewis
How I actually don’t know this.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Oh, this is a great story. So, government red tape got its name because all of the federal government’s regulations came printed on paper many, many years ago. Okay, and we’re bound by this red fabric. Get out of

Andrew Lewis
Here.

Kristin Philips-Hill
And fun fact, where do you think that red tape was originally made and manufactured?

Andrew Lewis
China.

Kristin Philips-Hill
York, Pennsylvania, at the York Narrow Fabrics Company. So it’s your destiny. This is your destiny, geographically, like we do, if it was manufactured there and made there, then we have that responsibility. You have an obligation, indeed, indeed. And so we literally, I get to the Senate that York Narrow Fabrics Company building still exists. It’s actually the Kinsley Engineering Facility now on the call, your college of Pennsylvania’s campus, and that’s where we held the press conference to just kick it all off. No way. And it was amazing. So we said no place better to cut that red tape and roll out that red carpet, businesses, individuals, nonprofits, local governments, then the very place where it was manufactured, and so that’s what we did. So

Andrew Lewis
That’s incredible.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Was in 2019 Okay, and it took all those years, six years, it was six years to get speed done, seven years to get speed 2.0 done, and and I really think it’s made a difference, so speed kind of opened it up. We were looking at sort of narrowly in DEP permits that are called 102105 MPDES. We were looking at DEP, we’re looking at county conservation districts, and we created something called third party review.

Andrew Lewis
Okay,

Kristin Philips-Hill
And that was unheard of.

Andrew Lewis
What’s a third-party review? And by the way, DEP is Department of Environmental Protection. Well, environmental, which

Kristin Philips-Hill
my predecessor in the Senate used to say stood for don’t expect a pre. Perfect, so accurate, that’s so accurate, so very accurate. It’s where

Andrew Lewis
Permit applications go to die, like it can be 1214, months, 24 months. Okay, so keep going,

Kristin Philips-Hill
But I think here’s the point that’s really important to note, and that is that when Harrisburg drags its feet, when DEP drags its feet, it’s not the bureaucracy that feels that impact, it’s our communities, it’s our people, it’s our employers, it’s our employees, it’s everyday people who really bear the negative impact. So we do speed, we target those three types of permits, and we create in law a requirement that you have to meet the timeline and that you can use a third party review, so DEP would go through a process and they would say this person meets the qualifications to be a person who could do third party review and they do all the processing, because here’s the thing, time is money, right? The governor said, “Hey, we’re going to, we’re going to reimburse you your application fee if we don’t do this right. No, no, $500 application fee is meaningless when you look at the cost to carry land, and and that drag, so third party review, meaningful timelines that are actually implemented, and a transparency tracking portal.

Andrew Lewis
Oh, get out of here, so they can sure they can actually see where the application is.

Kristin Philips-Hill
So everybody who’s listening in on this podcast, they know they place an order on Amazon,

Andrew Lewis
yeah,

Kristin Philips-Hill
And they get an email, and it says, ‘Thank you so much for your order. And then your order’s been packaged, your order’s been shipped. Oh, your order is now sitting on your front door. Uber Eats, DoorDash, same

Andrew Lewis
thing.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Lot of, especially younger folks, really like that same kind of process. You can track your meal live, see where it is, and know when it arrives on your doorstep. Why can’t we do that with permits? And so that was a really critical first step to working to reform our regulatory structure.

Andrew Lewis
It was so needed, just so the audience understands, especially for those who haven’t been in the business sector, it used to be, and in many areas of permitting, it still is. It was a nightmare. So people, business owners, would apply for a DEP permit. The DEP would kick it back, saying, ‘Hey, you’re missing this one line. They would fix the line, they’d send it back. Then let’s say a couple months later, they kick it back and say, ‘On page two, you’re also missing this, and then they fix that, and about a couple months later, so there’s like that third party, so important, because now you can bypass that.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Well, exactly. And I will say this, and I’ve said this all along, it’s not just businesses who feel this,

Andrew Lewis
It is

Kristin Philips-Hill
Everyday people.

Andrew Lewis
Great point,

Kristin Philips-Hill
It is nonprofit organizations, it is your township, it’s even other government state agencies, so let me give you a few examples. So Caspar Gladfelter came to America over 200 years ago, and he settled in York County.

Andrew Lewis
Who’s Caspar Gladfelter?

Kristin Philips-Hill
He is one of the founders of York County, one of the original settlers, and you know he has left an indelible mark on our county and our commonwealth, and his family gathers. They have family reunion picnic grounds now. The original homestead and the picnic grounds are separated by a creek with a bridge over it, and about a week before the 200th anniversary of him coming to the United States with people coming from literally as far away as Australia to celebrate this momentous occasion, terrible storm, and the bridge gets knocked out.

Andrew Lewis
Very, yeesh. Okay.

Kristin Philips-Hill
And so PennDOT calls me and says, we need help, we can’t get a DEP permit.

Andrew Lewis
Are you serious? Absolutely, one government agency couldn’t get another. It’s like, had to call state legislator

Kristin Philips-Hill
To help fix this permitting way. So, so even government entities struggle when it comes to getting permits from other agencies, departments, it’s like two AI

Andrew Lewis
Chat bots fighting. You ever see, like, like what on earth? They can’t even get crazy.

Kristin Philips-Hill
It’s.. it’s a little.. I had this elderly woman. She and her husband had been married for many years. They lived kind of rurally, and he had to go into a care facility. She wanted to join him, and to get the money to do that, she needed to sell their home, but there was a problem with the septic system that required a dep permit, and she just couldn’t figure out the way to get this done, trying

Andrew Lewis
To navigate it, she

Kristin Philips-Hill
was trying to navigate it, navigate her husband’s complex medical issues, her. Desire to be with him. He did not have long in this world, and so then they had to come to my office. Actually, it was a neighbor who came and said she just needs help, and she doesn’t know where to turn, and that permit was stuck in Dep, so you know a lot of people will say this is about big business. It’s really not. It’s really about people.

Andrew Lewis
That’s a great point,

Kristin Philips-Hill
And I think it’s so important to mention that, because, and that can really make a difference in everyday people’s lives.

Andrew Lewis
That’s huge, especially, I mean, we talk about housing right now, where there’s this massive housing shortage, people can’t find the homes that they need as their families grow, and builders can’t build if they can’t get the permitting to do so. So, it affects everybody, it affects families.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Well, and that’s a great point, because you know, for the first time in a long time, I’m starting to hear colleagues on the other side of the aisle talk about the regulatory and permitting challenges in the housing sector that could be contributing to this problem, and, and I’m just so taken aback, because before your tenure in the house, basically people thought I was either crazy or horrible for saying that government needs to work better when it comes to permitting, I think, in large part because they believed that we were going to be abrogating laws and the requirements that need to be met for getting these permits. That’s so far from the truth, really. What we’re saying is that we expect government to work in a way that’s efficient, effective, transparent, and accountable.

Andrew Lewis
That’s right.

Kristin Philips-Hill
That’s so important. That’s what everybody wants or needs, but you know there are most definitely regulatory and permitting challenges in that housing sector that are driving some of the lack of inventory and also affordability, and so if in my perfect world we’ve had speed, we’ve had speed 2.0 it’s great, but we know we can be better, we know that we’re not perfect yet, so I think that’s one of those places where I say there is opportunity for additional permitting reform down the road. Yeah,

Andrew Lewis
I would love to hear about that. So, as we know, Pennsylvania has about 164,000 total regulations on the banks, right, and we’re the 14th, according to the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, we’re the 14th most regulated state in the country, so we’re talking about which is crazy. Pennsylvania should be leading the way in opportunity. We have Ohio, we have Westfield, we have other states that border us that are far more competitive. What are some other things? Well, first I want to know the speed program.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Yes,

Andrew Lewis
Tell me about the effects. So, what kind of good things are happening now that you’ve got that in place, and how do we expand it? And then I want to know what else do we need to do on the on the reform front.

Kristin Philips-Hill
So, so what I’m hearing is that people are feeling heard,

Andrew Lewis
okay,

Kristin Philips-Hill
And they’re feeling visible, that it’s it’s really been a tangible positive impact. First off, they know where their application is.

Andrew Lewis
Okay, they can track it, so it’s working. They can track it. Portals working, okay?

Kristin Philips-Hill
So we joked, and we said, well, you know, DEP stands for Don’t Expect Perfect,

Andrew Lewis
Right?

Kristin Philips-Hill
Right, but so many people would say that, you know, it was like waiting for a pope to be selected. They were just waiting for the white smoke to come out of the chimney, and and so I think now with speed we were tracking and had that transparency portal for those specific permits with speed 2.0 we’ve expanded it to every governmental agency and entity for every permit that that’s being offered. Oh,

Andrew Lewis
That’s incredible.

Kristin Philips-Hill
That’s an.. it’s huge. And I think now people feel like, well, there is a path forward. Yeah, like I can do this, and it’s.. it feels.. I think less burdensome to them. It feels more transparent. I think the

Andrew Lewis
Portal is huge, because knowing where it is, it’s so much more peace of mind versus having no idea. So, I think the portal alone is a phenomenal improvement. You add to that the timeline adherence, and then you add to that the third-party review option. I think it’s fantastic.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s

Andrew Lewis
Great.

Kristin Philips-Hill
And here’s, here’s one of the biggest things that I’m really excited about, and that is deemed approved for the first time on certain permits. If DEP doesn’t act, those permits are considered deemed approved. Okay, if you had asked me back when I was in the house if I ever thought we could get to this point, I would have said there’s no way, there’s no. A way there’s no how, but here we are, and I think you know it is again. It is about making sure that government works appropriately, and government works for the people

Andrew Lewis
As it should, as it should. So, how do you expand these programs? So, we’ve got deemed approved, which are certain permits with DEP, and then you said speed 2.0 We’ve got the expansion. How do we expand this further, so that all permits are, have this this process?

Kristin Philips-Hill
Yeah, you know, I think we can take speed and speed point out, we can take that accountability, we can take the timelines, and we can begin to look at places where there’s a lot of burden on the regulated community, and a lot of delays and timelines for getting things done, and, and you know, I think what was so important about speed was, you know, those people who opposed it said the sky is falling, everything’s horrible, this is going to be terrible, it’s going to be bad for the environment, it’s going to be bad. It’s going to be bad, and then you see it implemented, and you go, “Wow, it’s making an impact. It’s.. it’s nothing bad has happened. Sky has not fallen. The sky has not fallen. And you know, so when I took on this issue, I had a gentleman who was a businessman, entrepreneur, his wife, they were friends of ours, and he was so very frustrated, and he came to me, and he said, You know, I can apply for a permit, I can get a shovel in the ground, I can build and open a facility in West Virginia faster than I get a permit to put a shovel in the ground at Penn, get out of here, and, and it was, it was just so tangible, the level of frustration and aggravation, and a real desire. He was a Pennsylvanian, he was proud to be a Pennsylvanian. And then eventually he came to me, and he said, “You know, KPH, I just can’t do this anymore. They laughed.

Andrew Lewis
Oh, they did, they left. Wow. And

Kristin Philips-Hill
what a tremendous loss for our community. Someone who creates jobs here, someone who creates investment here, someone who has a family that’s made great impact in the, in the greater community with nonprofit organizations helping people, and they’re gone.

Andrew Lewis
It’s a tragic loss. We talked in a recent episode about the great exodus from Pennsylvania. Every 24 minutes, someone else is moving out of the state, but not enough people talk about the business exodus, where we have businesses and job creators also leaving, and when you have states like Ohio, like West Virginia, bordering us that have these incredibly, I’d say better regulatory environments. So, what are some other reforms we can see? So, the speed program, it sounds like it’s off to a wonderful start, and it’s on its way to being expanded. What other reforms, when we talk about this mess of 164,000 total regs on the books, what else can we do?

Kristin Philips-Hill
Well, look, like you’ve noted, speed is really a strong step forward. It is not the finish line. We are still in that race, speed along, and we have to keep expanding that transparency with more permits and more agencies. We can make that happen, because we have been able to show that we are still in compliance with important laws, but we’re working at the speed of business, and you know, I would say, from my point of view, my predecessor used to say, if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it, right? So I want to see clearer performance metrics, I want to be able to measure the success and the improvement that we’re making, because I think that is the clearest way forward to make additional changes that are going to benefit so many people, our economy, and of course, you know, make sure that that red carpet is rolled out and people know we are here, we care about you, and look, we’re, we’re open for business. I

Andrew Lewis
Think that’s so important, because it’s a mindset shift. It’s a shift from being hostile to job creators to being welcoming to think. None of us can have a good job if someone didn’t create the job, right? So, we need businesses, we need these entrepreneurs, and so that welcoming philosophy and approach, I think, is so key.

Kristin Philips-Hill
I think also that we really have to take a hard look at regulations. Yeah, you gave that number from the Mercatus Center. I think when we first started talking about, when I first started talking about this, their number was about 160,000 We’re now up to 164,000 despite all the work that you know those of us have put in to try and reduce that regulatory burden, you know, but I still think there’s a lot of outdated and duplicative regulations, and we have been clawing back at these. One of my favorite examples of this is I live near a day. Berry farm, and you know, if I carry a few extra pounds, I directly attribute it to the incredible ice cream and chocolate milk that they have, but, but you know, they came to me and made a really good point. So they make farm fresh ice cream every day, and it’s amazing. What’s your

Andrew Lewis
Favorite flavor? By the way, I think everyone’s wondering,

Kristin Philips-Hill
So it is definitely their coffee ice cream. It is amazing. Okay, I highly recommend it. I think the name of that farm is Perry Dell. Their chocolate milk is also out of this world. Is it

Andrew Lewis
Better than Rutter’s chocolate milk? Rudders has about. don’t make me choose, I love them all. As soon as you, I dovetailed in the wrong direction, keep going. Sorry,

Kristin Philips-Hill
So you know they come to me and they say, you know, we put ice cream into quartz and pints and half gallons and gallons every day, they’re plastic containers, however, if we put ice cream into a push pop container that triggers the frozen dessert law. Get out of here. There’s a frozen dessert law, and that frozen dessert law requires us to fill out additional paperwork and go through a different state agency, and we have to pay a fee in order to make push pops. You’ve got kids the same product, push pops. Parents love push pops because it really contains the melt and the mess. This is insane. Well, my good friend, your good friend, Senator Judy Ward from Blair County, she did the bill, but it took several years, I think it was almost six years to get rid of this ridiculous regulation, and so you know, in my heart of hearts, I really believe we should be taking a systemic look across every department, agency, commission, across all of our books to look at those regulations, what makes sense, what doesn’t make sense, what’s outdated, what’s duplicative, and how can we make Pennsylvania work better for everyone.

Andrew Lewis
That’s a great point. I’ve heard of, and obviously, when I was in the House, we talked about the REINS Act, which is the Regulation of Executive in Need of Scrutiny Act, which kind of limits it, requires a legislative vote once a regulation crosses a certain economic impact threshold. So, can you tell us anything about that? Is that still movement? No,

Kristin Philips-Hill
That is still a piece of legislation that we have been trying to get over the finish line. Senator Kiefer has it in the Senate right now. Happy to co-sponsor it. I’ve always believed that that systemic look we need to clean up our regulations, and then we need to get them to a good place, and then have something like the Rains Act kick in to keep it from

Andrew Lewis
That’s a good point, getting

Andrew Lewis
Out of control, out of control

Kristin Philips-Hill
Again,

Andrew Lewis
Plug the leak, then bail out the boat, type of thing,

Kristin Philips-Hill
Correct. And I always said it, you know, it’s we’re talking in the spring, and a lot of people are saying, “Oh, I got to clean out the garage or clean out the closets before spring, you know, that’s kind of what I’ve envisioned happened, and then you have to put that organization system in place to make sure that it doesn’t wind up getting all junked up. That’s a

Andrew Lewis
Great point, that way we won’t go to 168,000 and 170,000 Correct. Wow. Well, I have a lot of questions I want to ask you. And throughout the journey here, you’ve answered many of them. So, we talked. We wanted, are there any other reforms that you’d like to see? So, we talked speed, we talked a little bit about Rains Act, you’ve talked about the cleanup. What specific other reforms are you looking at?

Kristin Philips-Hill
Oh my goodness, I know there’s a

Andrew Lewis
number of them

Kristin Philips-Hill
There. There really are a number of them, and I would say if your folks who are listening in want to go check it out, you know, I’ve been very transparent about the work that I do. Please check me out at Senator kristen.com that’s Senator K R I S T I n.com and just have a whole host of pieces of legislation, everything from, you know, looking at how we, we make the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission work appropriately. That’s a piece of legislation I just put out in light of some of the challenges that have been experienced there. We’ve had some concerns raised about spending on the governor’s personal private residents using taxpayer dollars. How do we clean though that up and make sure that taxpayers are made whole? Right, got to keep the governor and his family safe.

Andrew Lewis
Sure, of course,

Kristin Philips-Hill
but also need to protect taxpayers with that accountability.

Andrew Lewis
And transparency always, always,

Kristin Philips-Hill
You can never go wrong, and there’s no better disinfectant to anything that plagues government than a little, a little light on that’s

Andrew Lewis
Fair, that’s a well said, well said. So we’ve got a state budget due on june 30, as of the last couple years, been a little bit later than that, that it’s been finally done. What are your thoughts on Governor Shapiro’s budget proposal? What are some of your priorities in this year’s state budget?

Kristin Philips-Hill
So, I will just say this: what the governor asked for is audacious, $53.3 billion budget, and no clear path for how it will be paid. So, we’re looking now with this massive proposed increase in spending of about a $6 billion deficit between what the governor has requested to spend and what the taxpayers have paid Harrisburg, and I’ve always believed, and I know that you have too, that it’s really important that government lives within its means.

Andrew Lewis
Absolutely,

Kristin Philips-Hill
You can’t spend what you don’t have. So we need a budget that’s going to meet the needs of Pennsylvanians, and it needs to be done in a fiscally responsible manner. And so I’m going to be looking for a path forward that doesn’t deplete our rainy day fund that reigns in that spending in a way that doesn’t really hurt the neediest and most vulnerable Pennsylvanians, and honestly, I’m looking for those savings any possible way we can find

Andrew Lewis
Them. Wow, because the budget, as currently proposed by the governor, he’s saying it wouldn’t set us up for a future tax hike. What say you to that?

Kristin Philips-Hill
I completely disagree. I think that nothing could be further from the truth. You know, what is being proposed is similar to the average homeowner who makes $50,000 but spends $55,000 a year, and so in order to cover that $5,000 they have to dip into savings to cover what, to cover the electric bill, to cover the gas bill, to cover their cell phone bill, you know, when you are using your savings to pay for your everyday spending, you and I both know, and I think every person who’s listening in who understands basic finance, you’re going to get yourself in a lot of trouble, and, and so, what happens? Well, you either need to go get a job that pays you more money or you’re going to go broke. And so, how does that work for us, you know? And it would mean that we’d have to ask the hard-working people who pay our state’s bills for more, and I just don’t think that’s something my constituents or the vast majority of Pennsylvanians want to see happen.

Andrew Lewis
Well said. Well, I know many of our audience, and myself and our team, we’re grateful for your vigilance and all the work you do. I wish you and your team could go help the governor’s team and the governor himself learn math to learn that you can’t close these things with smoke and mirrors, right? It’s money doesn’t grow on trees, it doesn’t.

Kristin Philips-Hill
I wish that it did. I have all these beautiful rolling orchards across Southern York County, and I truly wish that we could pick them the same way we pick apples and peaches, and, but unfortunately, I know, nor nor do we have any of that up in the northern tier. But

Andrew Lewis
Yeah, well, what’s as we conclude here, what final thoughts do you have for our audience? Thank you so much for being on today. You’ve been fantastic, and we are grateful for all your work.

Kristin Philips-Hill
Thank you, and grateful for you and all the work that you do. And I think really the goal I think that we’re all working toward is for a system that works consistently for the best interest of Pennsylvanians, that is efficient, that is effective, that’s transparent, that’s accountable to the people, and, and I will say this, it’s not just in DEP, it’s really across the board for everything that our state government does.

Andrew Lewis
Well said, Senator KPH. Good to have you on. Thanks again. Thank you. The Speed program represents a huge step in the right direction. Let’s keep working toward more certainty and less red tape for Pennsylvania businesses. We’ll be back soon with another episode. Until then, this has been Freedom Rising, and I’m Andrew Lewis. Thanks for watching.

Unknown Speaker
Bye.